cewoodford wrote on Sep 20, 2008 3:06 AM:
" and Mike, as long as I have your ear( or eyes as it may be), this war for oil you've clearly outlined for us...uhhh...when exactly do we begin getting the oil? If not on the free market, AT LEAST we could resupply the oil reserves right? Furthermore...I mean Barak Obama just last week called for seizing Iraqs $79,000,000,000 surplus...which...hmmm...I guess is fine...but using that same logic. and considering our battered economy, shouldnt we, the citizens, be demanding that the US immediately seize their oil as well? I mean I'd be all for it..we could circumvent the evil oil comopanies and their schem with President Bush...think about it Mike... "
cewoodford wrote on Sep 20, 2008 2:58 AM:
" uhhhh...Mike....in a very compressed nutshell..I disagree with your theory on why we went to war in Iraq...completely disagree...that being said, I will redirect you back to my post and ask that you address the Iraqi citizens new found freedoms...the same ones so many people seem to take for granted...interesting little byproduct of this conspiracy to enrich President Bush's neighbors in Texas you'd have to admit right? "
charlatan wrote on Sep 19, 2008 11:09 PM:
" CommonSense, you just need to stop and think before you write. No one here has said that they think disrespect is a good thing. The people you disagree with (myself included) are arguing for free speech rights. Likewise, no one has suggested that people not stand for the flag. I completely disagree with you, but I would always stand for the flag at a parade and I would always respect a veteran. The comment preceding mine is very relevant. No one has made the assumption that this kid may actually be very educated and may have a strong belief system and he could possibly be trying to make a point. I don't believe that's the case, but no one has even considered it. "
aparent wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:49 PM:
" Is it reasonable to assume that this teens parents are absent or somehow messed up? They may have simply taught him to be a free thinking individual. They may fly a flag at their home,they may have taught him to stand and respect the people who have fought to protect our freedoms. While we don't have to support his methods we must set an example to support his freedom of speech. I pray he grows up to be an agent of change,in the voting booth and in his community. "
Mike wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:43 PM:
" "Where is the living better, not to mention the boundless opportunity for social mobility, than right here in the good old USA?"
Quite right, and freedom of speech was a key ingredient in making it possible. "
Mike wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:38 PM:
" cewoodford, I did not say the vet's fight was worthless. I said he was used as a pawn to serve someone's crooked agenda. Fighting for other people's rights is a noble goal but that's not why he was ordered to Iraq. The President's agenda was to funnel money to those who contributed to his campaign, and to drive up the price of oil for his oil barron buddies. Quite frankly, that agenda is a disgrace.
If VA Wife truely believed in freedom she would protect this kid's rights and she would beam with pride knowing her husband signed up to protect them. While a desecrated flag may symbolize our nation falling apart, the right to desecrate a flag without retribution is a much more powerful symbol of the freedoms the flag represents. It's a right everyone in this nation should be proud of. "
cewoodford wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:29 PM:
" Muike, where would they immigrate to ? Sweden? Norway? Where is the living better, not to mention the boundless opportunity for social mobility, than right here in the good old USA? Not one of them would dare consider moving..they might have to give up some of those rights they like to take for granted.. "
Mike wrote on Sep 19, 2008 6:27 PM:
" "If you don't like what our flag represents, don't like our country, don't like our Government, dont' stay here"
It's very ironic but I usually hear this argument from people who oppose the first amendment, people who hate that someone can express an opinion that offends them. I hear this argument from people who clearly do not love their country. Oddly enough, those people don't pack up their bags and leave. "
CommonSense wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:01 PM:
" I'm still gonna stand during a parade when the flag is marched by.
Free speech and disrespect shouldn't one in the same. "
cewoodford wrote on Sep 19, 2008 1:14 PM:
" Mike:Sep 19, 2008 7:43 AM. Possibly the dumbest post you made. I agreed with your arguement to an extent up until you threw that b.s. post which pretty much told that vets wife here husbands fight was a worthless one...you can tell the VOTING citiznes of Iraq how worthless the sacrifices of the American soldiers are, you obviously take YOUR right to VOTE and SPEAK YOUR MIND without RETRIBUTION for granted. This kid did something MOST of us disagree with, the point is, he was allowed to speak his mind WITHOUT being sent to a Gulag. That is what EVERY soldier in the History of the USA has fought for and certainly what our forefathers envisioned. "
jl23 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 10:35 AM:
" I (or you) may not agree with this BOYS actions but I defend his right to do them. We are bending over backwards for foreiners at Golden Plump...not that is some BS. This is just a boy acting w/out thinking and will probably learn a lot more from this than if he held his tongue. Acts like this create thought and change. I don't agree but I think there is a lot worse out there we could focus on. "
cjs1219 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 9:26 AM:
" Typo..."made here over and over" "
cjs1219 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 9:24 AM:
" Might I also point out, Mr./Ms. CommonSense, that you might need a change of unsername. It appears you are violating the very spirit of Thomas Paine, who was an ardent believer in freedom (including speech). The point has been made her over and over that our Founding Fathers were radicals. They stood up against their freedoms being infringed upon (including speech) and they too burned flags. I wouldn't doubt that if it were possible to carry the First Amendment atop a flag pole into battle, we would be better served by that reminder. "
cjs1219 wrote on Sep 19, 2008 9:15 AM:
" CommonSense...the point is, in America you have the ability to NOT LIKE the government or things that are happening in the country. In countless nations, you do not have that right (and it IS a right, not a privilege). If the flag "represents us" (as you said), then it represents me. I should have the right to have an opinion about something that represents me. Mike is right on...a symbol should NEVER be more important than the values that it represents. "
CommonSense wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:45 AM:
" Bottom line: If you don't like what our flag represents, don't like our country, don't like our Government, dont' stay here. I can't believe how respect for our country, our parents and each other is quickly evaporating. It's not about you or me here, it's about us...the flag represents US! "
El Uno wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:47 AM:
" Mike- BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... "
Mike wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:44 AM:
" Demosthenes, xfs-123, you are correct. The flag is a symbol. It's recognized around the world as a symbol of freedom. One of the most important such freedoms is the freedom to criticize the government. When did a symbol become more important than the values it represents?!? "
Mike wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:43 AM:
" VA Wife, you're husband was not serving his country. He was used as a pawn to serve a shady politician's crooked agenda. That agenda is a desecration to the flag and the nation as well. By the way, there are plenty of vets who have fought to protect freedom of speech which includes the right to desecrate a flag. Take a look around there are vets organizations dedicated to protecting that right after they fought against nations that outlawed such behavior "
charlatan wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:47 PM:
" PerfectStranger, thank you for the clarification. "
PerfectStranger wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:40 PM:
" Sorry, that should be 'technical' issue. "
PerfectStranger wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:39 PM:
" charlatan, FYI, last night's article was posted as a News Update or Breaking News (I forget which one), and when the next day's edition is posted, stories posted that way are (usually) changed into regular Local stories. All comments are lost in the process. Jerome Christensen can explain it to you better if you email him. It's a tecnical issue, not a deliberate erasure of comments. "
cjs1219 wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:11 PM:
" Give this a shot and educate yourselves: http://congress.indiana.edu/modules/vote/main.html "
always wondering wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:04 PM:
" I'll be the first to admit it, I don't know much about the bible. But I do know that some where in it, it states that everyone should follow the law of the land; or is it; follow your government's law. Either way, what this child did is disgraceful and illegal. "
charlatan wrote on Sep 18, 2008 8:39 PM:
" Centrist...I really do hope that you are a veteran because I appreciate those who have been there, yet recognize they are not fighting for a piece of cloth, they are fighting for what it stands for. That includes the 14-year old kid with an opinion that none of you like (I don't either, by the way). In Iraq, before the war, you could not have an opinion. In many countries in this world, you cannot speak out against the government. Pray that day never comes to the U.S.A. "
charlatan wrote on Sep 18, 2008 8:37 PM:
" Yeah, 24 hours later and it's just a bunch of the same stuff. Closed minds insisting that everyone think the way that they do. Insisting that everyone respect the same things they do. Demanding that everyone recognize that the flag means what THEY think it means. Quaint that the WDN erased all comments from last night. I felt like reading mine again. Joe Blow, count me as a proud American who gets what you are saying. A person who gets that the Bill of Rights is more important than any symbol that stands for it. "
E.Cartman wrote on Sep 18, 2008 3:18 PM:
" You obviously have a hard time with reading comprehension if you don't beleive joe blow defends the kids rights to destroy the American flag. I also corrected the "false idol" comment quoting the pledge of alliegence phrase "one nation under god". This means country does not come before god, but as it states. Therefore the American flag is not seen as a "false idol". This subject has nothing to do with desecrating the American flag, but joe blow's attempt begin a long drawn out dispute to prove how ignorant patriotic Americans are. Joe blow's parents are probably really proud of his intellegent free thinking, but I doubt his grandparents are. "
The Ultimate Hustler wrote on Sep 18, 2008 3:01 PM:
" Don't smoke da flag, smoke weed "
El Uno wrote on Sep 18, 2008 2:59 PM:
" If you're saying that Joe Blow is defending the burning of the flag (which he's not) wouldn't you then be defending the breaking of commandments? "
Rocket wrote on Sep 18, 2008 1:31 PM:
" My guess is that this kid had no idea the significance of what he was really doing. I also think that the punishment of jail or a fine doesn't really fit the crime for the main reason that his parents would probably be forced to foot the bill. (Which may not be bad if they were the ones teaching him that this was okay) But a different punishment would get the message to this child across in a better way. A military style bootcamp that misbehaving children are sometimes sent to comes to mind. That way he will get some first hand experience of the sacrafice that soldiers make.
thanks for the clarification Jack "
centrist wrote on Sep 18, 2008 12:53 PM:
" Wowzer! Can't believe this kid is from Winona. Give him credit for having an opinion and let him write a paper on it for class. Others will object much the same as gangs attack those who dis' their colors or some Muslims attack those who put the prophet in a cartoon. You have to respect my opinion because I'm a Vet and therefore I must know more about issues relating to patriotism. "
Joe Blow wrote on Sep 18, 2008 12:47 PM:
" The Iraq war has no moral, political or strategic foundation (unless you are an oil man, like Bush). Surely not for us since gas prices have tripled since Bush took office. The original excuses given by Bush for the war were basically lies to the American people. The Iraq war is illegal, immoral and just plain stupid. Take those hundreds of billions of dollars wasted on the war. They weren't just taken from the American people, they were given to war profiteers, the military contractors and suppliers who have gouged the American people. "
xfs-123 wrote on Sep 18, 2008 12:36 PM:
" VA Wife - thank you for your sacrifice and the sacrifices your husband endures everyday. Please wish him well from those of us who respect and understand what he is doing. I hope the sight of our flag at his post will always give him hope and the strength to continue on. "
xfs-123 wrote on Sep 18, 2008 12:30 PM:
" For those of you that do not understand what our flag stands for to most Americans, especially those of us who have served in combat, I doubt any amount of discussion makes a difference.
But if it is true that it is no longer a federal law to desecrate our flag, I am glad it is still a state law. If he challenges the state law, I am sure it will cost his parents time and money but then all of you can burn our flag all day long. Please do it publicly so your neighbors know who you are.
I am not happy with our government, but burning our flag is a pathetic and provocative symbol of anyone's disdain. Our flag does not represent our government, it represents our country. It is not a false idol, it is a symbol. "
VA Wife wrote on Sep 18, 2008 12:22 PM:
" Well Joe Blow I am sorry that you think we all talk about the military and that is all we think that represents the flag. But I would like to see you sit in 140 degree weather for 28 months. Not talk to your famliy for months at a time. Have your family sit back and worry if you are alive or dead. When you get to talk to your family you get to tell them you love them in a 3 min conversation. Because there are bombs going off in the background. The flag yes represents more then the miltary but the point is this kid doesn't get that! "
E.Cartman wrote on Sep 18, 2008 11:58 AM:
" El Uno...Read joe blow's most recent posting about christians and how it's a sin to idolize (the flag).Joe blow defends the destruction of our nations flag as freedom of speech. I wanted to emphasize the meaning of the pledge of alegiences use of "under god". "
ezzee wrote on Sep 18, 2008 11:10 AM:
" The US Supreme Court has ruled that laws that make desecration of the flag are unconstitutional. It was Texas V. Johnson. This law should and will be struck down as well. "
El Uno wrote on Sep 18, 2008 11:02 AM:
" Cartman - please explain how our pledge of alliegence trumps a commandment... "
smilingangel8 wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:48 AM:
" I very strongly agree with VA Wife who has posted here. our families fight for your freedom do they not..if they dont then tell us who does. this little boy needs more than a slap on the hand and a 1,000$ fine or whatever have u. we all know the court system is messed up to begin with. Where is this childs parent(s)..are they messed up. alot of things come to mind when u see something like this.what will become of our future.. ? "
E.Cartman wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:38 AM:
" Comandment... "
E.Cartman wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:37 AM:
" I pledge aliegence to the flag of the United States of America....One nation "under god"!! Sure... You probably don't agree with that either. But it joe blowes your 2nd amendment theory out of the water. "
Joe Blow wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:30 AM:
" ps ~ To all the Christians out there I will call your attention to the 10 Commandments, particularly #2: (Exodus) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. "
E.Cartman wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:22 AM:
" Sorry Winona Daily News...My first comment to this article must not have been PC enough and was not posted. What about my rights to freedom of speech?? only reserved 14 year old flag burners, and WSU professors? OOps... I appologize if that was too harsh. "
Joe Blow wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:18 AM:
" Isn't it interesting that whenever the issue of the flag comes up people feel compelled to chant about the military: "my son, husband, cousin, etc. fought for the flag, blah blah blah, etc etc etc." Well, if the flag represents anything it represents more than the military. It also represents our basic freedoms which include freedom to criticize the government, freedom of expression or freedom to hold a minority viewpoint. Maybe this young man has stumbled into an opportunity for an applied civics lesson. Maybe he will find someone who can help him challenge and overturn this unconstitutional state law. "
Jack Sparrow wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:12 AM:
" Rocket, the federal courts think desecrating the flag is covered by the first ammendment. I think the states have still been allowed to have these laws because it is such a grey area, and is likely to cause massive debate.
In my opinion, flag desecration is not covered by free speech, nor should it be. "
VA Wife wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:11 AM:
" I want to say shame on this boy who has done this to our flag. My husband has served 9 1/2 years in the Army and spent 28 months in Iraq. He missed his little boy's frist year growing up to defend his country. He has seen many of his friends killed in action. He has been shot at himself and THANK GOD is still alive. Where are this kids parents? Who should have taught him that this is not right! We need to as a country stand up and teach our children that this is not funny nor is it a joke. "
Rocket wrote on Sep 18, 2008 10:05 AM:
" I'm confused as to why desecrating the US flag is governed by a state law. It is a symbol of our country not a symbol of Minnesota so I am inclined to think that it should be a federal law. "
Demosthenes wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:39 AM:
" Simply put, desecrating the US Flag should NOT be covered by free speech because of what it represents. Ask a veteran what he fought for, and the majority of them will tell you "I fought for my country, for my flag". In other words, people have died to protect our country, our FLAG. It is a symbol of those who have given their lives to protect the freedoms we have, to make this the greatest country in the world. "
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