Troller wrote on Mar 5, 2008 7:07 PM:
" Ahh. Let's just wait for Lax, CTRock and Perfectstranger to get back from vacation. I'd love to see their perspective as well, but I just can't get my head that far up my rear. "
El Uno wrote on Mar 5, 2008 11:26 AM:
" I have a feeling that if we kept ever conversation civil and logical we will always come to the conclusion that both of our opinions have pros and cons and neither one is "the right" opinion. So lets get back to the crazy days of "Bush being the devil" and "Democrats inventing racism"....just makes for better reading. Troller, you're ugly and smelly! "
Troller wrote on Mar 5, 2008 8:49 AM:
" Fair enough. I respect your position. "
El Uno wrote on Mar 5, 2008 8:37 AM:
" Too be 100% honest, I never felt that threatened by the Middle East, so i would have waited for more support. Looking back I think it would have been the right decision, but that's easy to say now. "
Troller wrote on Mar 4, 2008 5:39 PM:
" I don't think there is a right answer. Fighting Al Qaeda will be like putting your hand in a bucket of water and trying to pull out the entire contents. I guess the real answer lies in each of us. "What's too much?" or "What's not enough?" Tough call. I'd probably erred on the side caution and gone for too much. I want to protect my country. What say you? "
Troller wrote on Mar 4, 2008 5:31 PM:
" As president you don't have the benefit of perfect 20/20 hind sight in this case, as we do today. You don't want another attack. You don't have anything more than the intelligence community has offered. Who do you trust? How far will you go to prevent another 9/11? How far is too far? How far is not far enough? If this were a sovereign country we were fighting for launching the 9/11 attack, we would have no business going to war in another country as well if they were not allies. But we are fighting an ideology. It's all around us. Do we do our best to deny them weapons, dollars and safe haven? I can answer your question but first, you're the president, you make the call. "
Troller wrote on Mar 4, 2008 5:23 PM:
" If you, as president of the US, decide wrong there may be some very serious consequences. Your new Homeland Security is still in it's infancy and information on terrorist cells here in America and Canada are coming at you daily. Do you ignore the potential threat? Diplomacy hasn't gotten anywhere. Do you risk, a full scale attack on America by Al Qaeda while they are riding high on a victory? Do you wait and see? If an attack occurs, will you appear as impotent and not doing enough? Remember the Al Qaeda cells are here. They just need the right weapon. Our boarders are open and bringing in dirty bombs is no problem. Heck! we can't keep starving Mexican peasants out. (one more) "
Troller wrote on Mar 4, 2008 5:12 PM:
" For the last 8 years, Suddam is in violation of UN sanction 1483 (if I remember correctly) and has been keeping UN weapon inspectors out. Terrorists have just demonstrated how serious they are and it appears attacks on the US have been taken to a new level. You give Suddam one last chance to let inspectors in. Rather than admit he has no WMD he begins to stall, threaten and is really acting pretty guilty. As president, you must now decide. Trust your intelligence reports, most of which you just inherited from the last administration, AND trust that Suddam will not start providing materials, or safe haven to Al Qaeda operatives, now that they have been ferreted out of Afghanistan. "
Troller wrote on Mar 4, 2008 5:04 PM:
" This may be long. Let's just step in Bush's shoes for a second and now you make the call. In December of 1998 Bill Clinton, who has had a number of terrorist attacks under his watch states on TV, "Saddam (Hussein) must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons" This is the intelligence Washington has. You're elected and on watch, the worst terror attack in US history takes place. Intelligence reports track this to Osama and his thugs. You know they are hiding out in Afghanistan, so off you go in search of Al Qaeda. Meanwhile, back in Iraq, you are faced with a problem (continued) "
Rawhide wrote on Mar 4, 2008 4:06 PM:
" Its obviously time to get rid of our tone-deaf council. No matter how many times they hear, "We do not want to pay more in taxes", they just keep pushing this line. "
El Uno wrote on Mar 4, 2008 2:51 PM:
" So what are your thoughts on starting the war when we did? Would you concede that Bush made a mistake by going against the UN and not waiting for that support? There is no denying that Saddam should not be in power but I don't think he was the imminent threat that the Bush administration made him out to be; and I believe they used some very questionable tactics to stir up support for the war. Either way things will be interesting once we have a changing of the guard. "
Troller wrote on Mar 4, 2008 11:46 AM:
" This has been the problem with every war. Mistakes are made, innocent people get killed. I'd just as soon bring all of our troops home. It shouldn't have to be our job to police the world. But I still think we have to at least look down the road a bit. Who knows? If we just pulled out, they might kill each other off and we could buy our oil cheap. But, for whatever the reasons we find ourselves in this jam, the nut jobs aren't going away anytime soon. So we have to decide, take a chance with a pull out, or stay the course. Obama pretty much wants to get us out, and I think he'll try. Will it work, or will Americans have to learn another lesson the hard way? Time will tell. "
El Uno wrote on Mar 4, 2008 7:54 AM:
" I do appreciate the fact that you seemed to tone down the craziness for this little get together and actually made some solid points. But we're damned if we do, damned if we dont'; so if I had my choice no more of my comrades would die for a never ending war. Let the Middle East handle the Middle East. Yes, innocent people will die, but I just read that we dropped more bombs on Somolia and killed some innocent women and children so..... "
Troller wrote on Mar 3, 2008 3:56 PM:
" Outlandish statements about presidents, does nothing and seriously inhibits substantive debate. Primarily because it ignores the background (even if it feels good) and creates an atmosphere of subjective opinions flying around, ultimately distracting from objective facts, real problems and potentially real solutions. If Bill Clinton was my president, George Bush is most certainly yours. Have good one. "
Troller wrote on Mar 3, 2008 3:40 PM:
" Yes it is. I think by going back and understanding how this began, and if you look closely it predates Carter, we will then be able to begin to unravel this mess and maybe get some ideas about mitigating the situation. But I don't believe the radical islamic jihad will go a way. Not as long as they train their children to carry suicide bombs, and will kill their own with no more thought than they would kill one of us. However, we might be able to turn more non-radical islamic into allies if we can provide them with a sense we aren't there for expansion, demonstrate respect for their sovereignty and provide them some type of security and stability as they head toward goals they have established for themselves. "
El Uno wrote on Mar 3, 2008 3:18 PM:
" Quite the pickle we're in, huh? "
Troller wrote on Mar 3, 2008 11:46 AM:
" While the liberals complained there were no WMD, they discounted any and all facilities which were found and were capable of producing a WMD. However, with islamic jihad, the faithful are willing to become those WMD and take the battle anywhere on the planet. The Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security have done a magnificent job thus far. Neither Obama or Clinton will dismantle these programs if elected because it yields the kind of power they crave. They just don't want Bush to have it. Will America get hit again? Undoubtedly. But the battle front on this particular war isn't just in Afghanistan or Iraq. It's global. Pull out one place, soon you will be compelled to fight it in another. "
Troller wrote on Mar 3, 2008 11:39 AM:
" Ostensibly these people only want us out of the Middle East. This then frees them up to continue land grab wars like Suddam tried with Kuwait and Iran. But forget oil for a second and consider two things. Not all Iraqis, Afghans, or Iranians want to be involved in the mayhem which would follow a US withdrawal, and Israel left to it's own defenses against these countries would almost certainly escalate to a nuclear show down, if not holocaust. The Saudi government will have it's hands full as well. In the meantime, islamic extremists will continue training and improving their weaponry and tactics, unabated by any government over there. It doesn't take that many jihadists to get the job done. "
El Uno wrote on Mar 3, 2008 10:25 AM:
" I don't deny that SOME of this is motivated by religion, but to keep acting like we are innocent victims is why we are here in the first place. I want a leader willing to look at why these people are so mad and what we can do to change that. Technology has thrown the history books out. Military power means less now because ordinary civilians have the means to destroy cities if the spirit moves them. Yes, we have the greatest military in the world but we also have it spread very thinnly throughout dozens of countries. "
Troller wrote on Mar 3, 2008 9:22 AM:
" I would love for this war to be over! There's nothing glorious about war and I have relatives who have been it. But you need to pick up a history book, or get cable and watch how this unfolded. Bush did not start this! It's been going on (without much response or being taken seriously) for decades. Also, I'm not scared in the least. I have the greatest military power in the world protecting me. And you as well. Perhaps you're willing to cut back your power usage 25%. If you and your liberal pals do that, we can pull out today. But we will still waging a war with an ideology of jihad. You think this is made up? WOW! "
El Uno wrote on Mar 3, 2008 9:20 AM:
" Bush by deifnition is one of the largest terrorists in the world today, with thousands of Iraqi's blood on his hands as well as his campaigns continuing effort to terrify US citizens into blindly supporting his unjust war. Pawns.... (by the way, Bush has never been and never will be my president) "
El Uno wrote on Mar 3, 2008 9:16 AM:
" And to answer your question on Iraq, if we got out today the country would fall into a deep civil war. If we stay they will continue to revolt against the US government that has been placed in power. So congrats Bush on leading us into an un-winnable war where the reality is hundreds of thousands more deaths. But I am sick of hearing about American soldiers dying and money being WASTED on a cause that isn't working. We have enough problems between our own borders. If you were as patriotic as you insist you are, you would want this war to end. Must suck being scared all the time.... "
El Uno wrote on Mar 3, 2008 9:11 AM:
" When will you open your eyes and see that WE started this war. We have picked and prodded the Middle East for decades and stuck our noses in business that does not concern us. We are not the world police. You buy into this jihad junk that is much Bush propaganda as it is reality. Sure their religion is important but it isn't the single driving force in their anger. 9/11 was a retaliation, not a beginning. "
Troller wrote on Mar 3, 2008 8:20 AM:
" In fact, you don't even have to be concrete. Tell us what the real world will look like if we just "quit". You wave your magic liberal wand Hillary/Obama are in charge and we are completely out of Iraq this afternoon. What do you see as happening next? "
Troller wrote on Mar 3, 2008 8:13 AM:
" Actually El Uno, President Bush is your president as well. The mess we are in started back in the 70s and has been every parties failure. But to answer your question, I don't believe this war on terror will ever be over. Perhaps you are bipolar, if so my condolences. But jihad has been waged against us, not the other way around. Liberals, such as yourself, say the war is about oil, though we've never seen a drop of oil or in price. Conservatives see the war as one of ideology. They want to kill us, we'd rather live. The terrorists have nothing we want. We however have something they do not want us to have, freedom to choose. Now answer my question, if we quit, what is the next logical progression and what are the end results? "
El Uno wrote on Mar 3, 2008 7:44 AM:
" So your idea Troller is to keep fighting until terror surenders? Maybe that will be around the same time drugs surender as well. Or maybe we can start another war against some ambiguous term. I'm dead serious when I ask you this question, when will this war end in your eyes? What will have to happen for you to say we've finally done the job? By the way, don't start ripping people because they can't easily fix the huge mess YOUR president got us in. "
xfs-123 wrote on Mar 3, 2008 7:04 AM:
" Troller, you got it! No terrorists in Iraq Obsama? That is not what the people of Iraq say! Obsama's clueless rhetoric stems from lack of age and development of common sense, but he will have us take it s step further and raise our hands in surrender, and as you point out, what then? I will never be willing to do that to myself or for the generations that follow. Can the party that Obsama supports provide a different scenario? No, they cannot. We'll find Obsama carrying a sign in front of the Winona recruitment center, doing his part for the war effort, or at least a sign carrying wannabe. "
Troller wrote on Mar 2, 2008 7:33 PM:
" Apparently Obama, you're the only one who cannot connect the dots. But be that as it is, you didn't really address your thoughts on my suggestion. Should we just surrender, or give up, run away, take your pick and see what happens? If we don't like the results, what do we do then. If terrorism has not roots in Iraq as you say, then you must believe if we cut and run, the world will once again become a safer place or at the very least, all this money will be directed to education, roads and programs for the sick, lame and lazy. It's very simple question. What say you? (And no, not all the American people agree with your argument, including the democrat presidential contenders.) "
Obama wrote on Mar 2, 2008 5:59 PM:
" There you go again Troller. Linking Iraq to terrorism. Nice try, but that arguement is played out and the American people know it. "
Troller wrote on Mar 2, 2008 12:02 PM:
" I suppose we could surrender and see how it works out?? I mean if we don't like what happens to us, we can always RE-SPEND the money, AGAIN, fighting our way out of an Islamic Jihad. How's that work in your world Osama,,,whoops,,,, I mean Obama! "
Obama wrote on Mar 2, 2008 10:28 AM:
" I can't believe you complain about 600k, but you say nothing when our government admits it has lost BILLIONS in Iraq. Where did the money go? Who knows? It seems to me you would rather waste money overseas then invest in a better America. Iraq is bleeding this country dry and has improved Al Queda. But you cheer for it. "
xfs-123 wrote on Mar 2, 2008 9:15 AM:
" Sounds like Obama just wants to raise his hands and surrender again. Witless and gutless.
Find ways of cutting gov't spending locally. You know, forget buying and building more gov't buildings, forget funding the GRSF to the tune of $600k a year, forget building new theaters/basketball courts that we can't afford to build or maintain, forget funding the arts when the infrastructure is failing, etc. I think that we not only don't need any more local taxes but we better stop wasting all the money we do have. "
Obama wrote on Mar 1, 2008 9:12 AM:
" Just think of all of our tax money going to he war in Iraq. Oh wait, you like that tax don't c.e. woodford. "
cewoodford wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:20 AM:
" I agree with Snuffy...no more new taxes..make do with your current allowance like the rest of us have to. "
cewoodford wrote on Feb 29, 2008 11:18 AM:
" You cant keep going back to the well for water when the well is about dried up. Every year the property taxes are rising(thanks you Paul Durrand)and basic living expenses like food( thank you Ethanol industry scammers)and gas(thank you opec). When does it stop? The states operating budget has way more than doubled in the past decade...has your income? "
ssnuffy wrote on Feb 29, 2008 7:50 AM:
" Dont b so sure Troller, Since the gas took away some of my funding I'm forced to do belt tightening and i've put back quit a few items that used to just fall into my cart.
All things considered Jim a few years back I could count on the primary City streets being plowed curb to curb. thats not happening now and there IZZ NO excuse. Why would I agree to more taxes. It's still value for dollars spent and i'm seeing nothing close for the bucks we're paying now. "
Troller wrote on Feb 29, 2008 6:31 AM:
" More sales tax, higher gas and license fees? No problem anymore. I just raised my prices, raised salaries another 5% and continue doing business as usual. Profit margin? Untouched! I think you'll see a lot of that soon. "
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