Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 18, 2007 9:45 AM:
" The biggest problem here is the over-all reasoning. Jim uses the title: "Teachers’ pay is the bulk of education budget" but nowhere does he tell us WHAT part of the budget goes to the teachers. In lumping ALL district employees, he comes up with a number that equals a large part of the budget. It would still make sense that the majority of the budget would go to the people working in education and not just pencils. But, let's not forget that WAPS has a large number of non-teaching staff in order to function. This includes administration. Regardless of how you feel about their salaries, adding it into a figure that is supposed to represent "teachers" brings the percentage up. It makes no sense and I'm sorry I'm not dumb enough to get hysterical with those who might not understand the basic problems in this editorial. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 18, 2007 9:39 AM:
" Troller, I'm not opposed to some idea of "bonuses". The problem is basing such incentives on test scores alone as a measure of teacher quality. There is not a strong concensus as to what education is supposed to be right now. NCLB states several "core" subjects. Yet students only need to be tested in math and reading right now. And if not every kid is at grade level (all kids need to be average or above, which is just a mathematical impossibility) the whole system (including ALL students) receive the punishment. With so much focus on reading and math, one teacher might get a bonus for good reading scores. But I'd be tempted to know that this teacher is also teaching science in a really meaningful way and that the students are also engaged in art, writing, history and all social studies, and physical education. "
Troller wrote on Oct 18, 2007 7:48 AM:
" Why shouldn't a teacher, who thinks outside the box, and performs well get a bonus? Any teacher in any year can get one of those special kids. A teacher may get a bonus for 10 years before some child presents such a challenge and bonus slips away for one year. The teacher still gets their regular pay check, precisely what they agreed to when taking the job. Right? Now, think of the teaching experience gain by that one student who put a dent in the bonuses curve. The teacher learned far more from that one student than all of the cookie cutter, regular students, taught over the previous 10 years. I've enjoyed the talk, but I've got to go. I'm teaching history in the Chicago area tomorrow. No bonus either. ;( "
Troller wrote on Oct 18, 2007 7:36 AM:
" I'm not sure I completely agree. Even teaching to a test, so a student can "parrot" back, gives the disadvantaged student something. Using brighter students in the classroom to assist/tutor slower students could transform the entire class into a teaching tool. I thought with NCLB, the student you describe, could not be passed along until basic requirements of the grade level where achieved. If NCLB were applied correctly then, the teacher shouldn't have spend time bringing the child up to speed. Even if only taught to the test. I've always understood the school system to be preparatory. Therefore, we need to prepare the student. It seems to me, advancing one's education comes in college, trade school or on the job. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 17, 2007 10:31 PM:
" Troller, as for "incentive bonuses", imagine you are a teacher and a new student comes into your classroom. She has moved nine times within the last few years. Aside from the extra time it takes to simply assess what this student understands, you need to help her catch up to everyone else RIGHT NOW so that you can get your bonus. You might go for teaching the test to the low scorers as you neglect real learning and the needs of those average or well-scoring kids (the ones who have support from home, who do their homework, whose needs are generally met and who come to school prepared to learn). This is only an example of one of many ways in which NCLB and pay based on over-reliance on test scores run the risk of dumbing-down education. "
xfs-123 wrote on Oct 17, 2007 4:19 PM:
" I would gladly pay teachers more if administrators made less. The top heavy group gets the big bucks and the workers get what's left. The most important thing management does is to look out for management. WAPS is a classic example. "
Troller wrote on Oct 17, 2007 2:17 PM:
" Possibly we weren't comparing all the numbers. The figure I remember included transportation, meals, and other assistance. But in any case, in a classroom of let's say 20 students, that's $170,000 (unless my calculator is wrong - you check too) Now, what percent of that goes to the teacher again? We, students and teachers would be better off if we let the teachers rent the room and books, then independently contract the education. We could trim management, and provide incentive bonuses for test scores and release teachers from a huge bureaucracy. "
To Troller wrote on Oct 17, 2007 9:57 AM:
" I followed your advice and went to the Dept of Ed website. It says Winona spends $8500 per student which is less than the state average of $8617. It also says that in Winona $386 of the $8500 is spent for district administration which is more than the state average of $376 for district administration. However, Winona spends $3540 of the $8500 per student for regular instruction which is considerably less than the state average of $3963. "
Troller wrote on Oct 17, 2007 7:59 AM:
" I see your point, but I don't think inflation is at 13% and I must have been mistaken because I thought teachers had healthcare as part of their compensation package. I don't believe I posted any thoughts with Q-comp. Go, don't Go, The teacher should be allowed to decide what their time is worth outside the classroom. Personally, I pulled all three of my kids from the public school system after two were threatened with a knife (in fourth grade) and I was told my one son had ADD, needed meds and would never be capable of reading and writing. WRONG ANSWER! We home-schooled (for better or worse) Two went to college and were on the Dean's list throughout. Number 3, reads and writes just fine now. Runs his own very successful business too. "
Troller wrote on Oct 17, 2007 7:47 AM:
" Well, I think it's reasonable to look at other approaches rather than throwing more money at the problem.. After all, teaching, like any other profession is a choice and if money is what you want, perhaps teaching isn't your best career choice. I believe taxpayers currently spend about $14,000 per year per student. Go to the Dept. of Ed website, I did a couple of years ago, if you have the time you can find it. Too often we think more money will make things better but money doesn't always solve the root problem. We want our kids to be educated and we want our teachers to be happy. So, once again, how do we reconcile the problem? And please, not more money, it's been tried. "
Re: Troller wrote on Oct 16, 2007 11:32 PM:
" You mention something to the effect of not trying more money. It's called inflation. Salaries can't stagnate if we want to compete for quality workers, in this case teachers. Our teachers are paid below the MN average. Throw in the rise in health care costs and add to this discussion the fact that it's certainly not difficult to make more money with a 4 year degree. Look up the stats on how many teachers decide to leave the profession and enter a 12-month career. Why? I don't know either. The US faces teacher shortages in spite of the fact that there are more than enough people with teaching licenses out there. We could all be teachers if we imagine it's so wonderful. "
Re: BGM wrote on Oct 16, 2007 11:16 PM:
" Last post: very nicely said. My thoughts on Q-Comp: worth knowing more about and what the variations are. My questions: I imagine the evaluation and continual assessment (and hopefully varied assessment) would be time consuming and require new hires for nothing but the purpose of this sort of assessment. Would the writers of WDN and their cronies wish to foot the tax bill? I highly doubt it. I don't care if people are ignorant. But I do care when they use a venue or whatever pedistal they have to do whatever damage they can. I can't understand it. All of my children went to the public schools and are doing very well. We couldn't afford private school and I honestly was never interested. I'm sorry WDN. "
working , over taxed (poor boy) wrote on Oct 16, 2007 10:37 PM:
" can't respond to jim's article any better than ssnuffy's post earlier. i would just add that its time to homeschool our children and abolish homestead property taxes. property taxes are becomming a form of segregation and rent. "
BGM wrote on Oct 16, 2007 7:12 PM:
" Comparing teaching to other professions is an exercise in futility. Imagine that you are a manager with 150 employees for whom you are responsible. You are required to teach them new concepts about their jobs every day, and you must do it in groups of 30 to 40 at a time. Your performance will be judged based, not upon their productivity, but upon a test that your employees take after you have taught them every facet of their job. And the test covers every job the company performs. And you have to take every applicant that applies, regardless of whether they can do the job or not. And every year you start over with a new group of employees. And you are required to go to school and workshops every year at your own expense to maintain your position. "
BGM wrote on Oct 16, 2007 7:05 PM:
" Tenured teachers ARE subject to peer and administration observations, just not as often as non-tenured teachers. There is also a misconception that tenured teachers cannot be removed. That is simply false. Tenure does offer certain protections, but it does not make a teacher "untouchable". "
BGM wrote on Oct 16, 2007 7:02 PM:
" There is not a teacher out there who believes that there should be no accountability. The question is, "How is accountability measured?" There is no other profession that applies accountability based on the results of standardized tests taken by other people. That does not measure teaching ability or even the student's ability. Accountability is time consuming, and, yes, expensive. And it is being done already in some school districts through use of individual teacher goals, a schedule of administration observations of teachers and tangible evidence of learning. It takes additional non-teaching staff to implement and maintain such a system. How many of those calling for accountability are willing to shell out more tax money for additional non-teaching staff in Winona? "
RE: Troller wrote on Oct 16, 2007 5:38 PM:
" We don't know all the issues behind Q-Comp and why the teacher's union is not interested at this point. It would likely be messy and expensive to assess. I understand your points and agree that evaluation and accountability are important. Aside from Q-Comp and all that it might entail district to district, I simply wonder why teachers are not reviewed regulary by peers or administrators beyond tenure. This would likely not to be a way to fire people, but more likely provide useful criticism to help them grow in their profession...or to help deal with possible problems or poor practices the moment they are noticed. I'd think a really bad teacher could simply be fired but I don't know enough about any of it. I am looking for my own well-rounded sources of information. Read, then know that anyone seriously interested person is informed through more than one source. "
RE: Rawhide, part three. wrote on Oct 16, 2007 5:32 PM:
" As you can see, this is not the place to post research, but I'll at least finish the last thought. Please gather some information for yourself. I assume you are somewhat resourceful if you are so interested. Good luck. Now to continue from part two: "...The study also found that constant testing encourages even successful students to see the goals of education in terms of passing tests rather than developing an understanding of what they are learning,
The researchers found firm evidence that achievement of literacy is linked to students’ interest in learning, the degree to which their learning strategies link to existing knowledge rather than just memorizing, and the degree to which they feel in control of their learning. The authors concluded that policymakers must recognize that high-stakes testing is providing information about students’ attainment while reducing their motivation to learn." "
RE: Rawhide, part two. wrote on Oct 16, 2007 5:30 PM:
" I'll quote what I can. Source: many on web, search for the title. "The results of the study, titled “A Systematic Review of the Impact of Summative Assessment and Tests on Students’ Motivation for Learning,” rebut the claim that standardized testing motivates low achievers to reap the reward of high scores and avoid the punishment of failure. In fact, researchers Wynne Harlen and Dr. Ruth Deakin-Crick of Bristol University found that the two categories of students particularly discouraged by constant testing are girls and low achievers..." "
RE: Rawhide wrote on Oct 16, 2007 5:27 PM:
" You may not like to read, but I'd encourage you to find the research for yourself. If you know anything about google, you'll do just fine. But I'll get you started with what might fit here. I don't have all day. If you are interested in getting informed, please take the time to do so. Here is just a short beginning for you: "Report on research from 18 states that concludes that high-stakes tests do not lead to higher student achievement. In addition, such tests can decrease student motivation to learn and lead to higher student retention and dropout rates." Source: "The Effects of High-Stakes Testing on Student Motivation and Learning" by Audrey L.Amrein and David C. Berliner. "
El Uno wrote on Oct 16, 2007 8:06 AM:
" SO did we give up already on the instant posting? "
Troller wrote on Oct 16, 2007 7:24 AM:
" Performance reviews in the public sector are pretty common. Before starting my own business, I got them all the time. I still get them in a manor of speaking, not from the boss any more, but from clients. I find it a good way to keep moving on those days when I'd rather not. I think sometimes we forget children are people too and I agree there are different learning capacities. But to really function, they need the basic tools provided by teachers. Otherwise, they simply can't compete. Unless, maybe around the age of 12 the educational process becomes more about vocation rather than avocation. In any case it starts with teachers and the teachers must be able to do the job, or at least want the job. How do we reconcile the issue? Please don't say more money, we've tried that. "
Rawhide wrote on Oct 16, 2007 2:25 AM:
" Clueless, please let us all know where we can find this "research" supporting your claims. And as far as how hard teachers work, I don't doubt that, but you made your career choice. One other item not mentioned is that a public sevant gets a pension; most of the general public does not. The folks who conducted the lecture on this blog need to think for a minute about how the general public has to prepare for retirement. Many of the families in Winona have a combined parental income less that your salary. You expect empathy from us with the difficuties of your work, please reciprocate with empathy for our tight budgets; thats why we ask a lot of questions. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 15, 2007 6:25 PM:
" Dear Troller, Many citizens (parents, educators, and politicians certainly included)are interested in looking at broad assessment of children. This means not simply taking their scores from one mulitple-choice test on one day. Students can excell in more ways that fill-in-the-bubble reading and math tests (at least I hope so). Besides, when it all comes down to one test, some students deal with real test anxiety. Other kids, however intelligent, may score low due to dyslexia or other test-taking challenges. Some kids simply don't care about their test score but are able to invest much effort in a project, performance, or essay that has some depth or meaning. Research has shown that high-stakes testing damage motivation to learn. They are out there only to assess teachers. The kids should not have to pay in order for us to "test" the teachers. "
Troller wrote on Oct 15, 2007 6:34 AM:
" So are you saying testing should move away from multiple choice tests and toward more essay based testing? I could get on board with this. It requires more analytical thought, plus the use of many basic skills such as reading, writing, vocabulary, spelling, punctuation and more. This type of testing would certainly reveal any inadequacies in the teaching/learning process. But your position on tenure is flawed. I have personally experienced teachers, with tenure, who have lost all interest in teaching. Tenure is meant to prevent a teacher from spending their lives teaching, only to be replaced by a younger and cheaper teacher just before retirement. It's not a reward for achievement. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 15, 2007 12:14 AM:
" Dear Winonan,
I wouldn't say teachers shouldn't be evaluated past tenure. The issues and questions of evaluation are not addressed here(the expense of such evaluation is something Jim would likely not want to pay for, especially considering it would likely lead to the same or higher pay for teachers). Do not take Jim as a source on the matter of Q-Comp. My issue with his writing is a general misuse of information (the 85% figure including ALL district employees in his obvious attack on teachers, etc.) Darrel E. is also NOT a source of information. These are editorials filled with what they hope looks like "news" through using bits of information that either do not fit, are not understood, or are not articulated. Social workers deserve better pay for their education. The pay is not my main concern in reading Jim's silly rant. "
winonan wrote on Oct 14, 2007 11:28 PM:
" You give yourselves a bad name, by being against any system that may ask you to prove that you are doing a good job. (And you know as well as I do that there are bad (very bad) tenured teachers out there who haven't changed a lesson plan in 15 years...) "
winonan wrote on Oct 14, 2007 11:28 PM:
" How can it be so difficult to measure a teacher's performance? It's done in the business world all the time. My raise is based on a review by my boss and peers and how well I met goals set by myself and supervisor the year before. I used to be a union worker, so I understand how scary it is to go from an automatic raise every year to something merit based, but come on guys.... You are not the lowest paid proffession. I am a social worker and we basically have to have a master's to get a job and I make less than 36,000 a year (and that is for 12 mos of work - I don't have the chance to pick up a second job in the summer) I will never top 50,000 unless I am management. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 14, 2007 10:06 PM:
" Dear Troller, if a teacher is not doing well in the classroom they will not make it to tenure. They are let go within the first few years. I'd imagine certain challenges could be resolved with help of other teachers, mentors, or administrators. But if it is a case of a clearly bad fit, the contract is not renewed. As for teaching to the test, instead of including links here, I will encourage you to find the research for yourself. It's quite simple. Multiple-choice testing does nothing by way of motivating students or increasing critical thinking skills, collaboration, or creativty...all those skills we supposedly need to compete in the "global economy." Please look into it if you are so curious. "
Troller wrote on Oct 14, 2007 4:22 PM:
" Okay, so now I'm clueless. Are you saying we should lower the academic bar because it's too high? "Teaching to the test." Is there something objectionable in the test we should know about? Does tenure actually mean you're a good teacher or that the teacher wasn't dismal enough to be let go? I'm not sure what your posts were trying to say. Could you clarify some of your points in a factual manner, identifying those items in NCLB which are detrimental to our students. OH, and Ssnuffy, well said my friend. Well said! "
ssnuffy wrote on Oct 14, 2007 7:35 AM:
" We are sacrificing our kids to a corrupted public school system. Good teachers are well worth the increase. but not in a system thats gone sour. We need a person at the helm whos "heartcry " is educating our kids, not playing games. With what we are seeing the system is failing, miserably. Education begins at home. When you took responcibility and the "woodshed" away from parents you cripple a teachers ability to educate. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 13, 2007 10:13 PM:
" Now it's time to consider Jim's misuse of information. In what seems like an attack on teachers, he lumps all employee salaries together to state that 85% of the budget goes to salaries. On the state Dept. of Ed. site he could find that teachers in Winona are paid less than the statewide average, while administrators are paid the same or more than the state average. Whether or not this is fair is beside the point. The point is, if Jim would like to attack teacher salaries, I'd suggest he find that figure. It is not 85% of the budget. Adding administration and all other district employees into his case against teachers only makes no sense. Another thoughtless "argument." But there's always next time. Try again, Jim. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 13, 2007 9:51 PM:
" New Budget Proposal for Jim:
20%--computers
20%--standardized tests
10%--books
10%--pencils
10%--Capital
10%--stickers for elementary students
5%--televisions
5%--transportation
5%--utilities and maintainance
5%--teacher and administrative salaries
We will call it "do-it-yourself" education. Kids need to be independent in order to get by in this global economy. We need one teacher, even if it's a very poor teacher, per every 90 students. Tests will provide for "accountability." "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 13, 2007 9:47 PM:
" The research points to poor learning resulting from high-stakes testing. That's why thousands of people have gotten involved in trying to change NCLB. If Jim knew something about education, he might know that basing teacher pay simply on test scores could certainly run the risk of encouraging poor teaching practice. Under NCLB, teachers all over the country are already pressured to "teach to the test" to a point and side-step efforts to encourage critical thinking, communication, and other skills that matter. Teachers should be evaluated fairly beyond tenure. But I assume the point is that if a teacher makes it that far, they've proven to be qualified to do their job. The first few years are a test. Jim, come back to us after you have read something beyond your own fleeting thoughts. Thank you. "
Call Me Clueless wrote on Oct 13, 2007 9:41 PM:
" I can't believe this sort of "thinking" gets space in the paper. I wonder what Jim thinks the bulk of the budget SHOULD go to? Bean bags for kindergartners? High-tech pencil sharpeners? Transportation? Or is it that computers teach kids? I figure teachers teach kids. We whine about money being spent on buildings, declaring that it should go to the students. Do we give the kids a check? No. Hopefully we supply them with high-quality teachers and small or manageable class sizes. Those factors relate to learning and they relate directly towards paying teachers. Winona already pays their teachers less than the state average, something Jim decided to leave out. What do we really want to offer in Winona? Jim likes mediocrity. Let him speak for himself. But why give him space in the paper? Why not something more intelligent and useful to the population? "
millie wrote on Oct 13, 2007 5:51 PM:
" The last two comments are well written. Yes, professionals that work with people(social work, teachers, etc) should be paid more. Our responsibilities include many more hours than the public is aware of. We do so because we are dedicated to educating our future. Why else would we stay in a profession where we are so underpaid. Although the last to posted comments were wonderful..am I missing something with the sheriff arresting you and the bridge jumping comments?
"
getreal wrote on Oct 13, 2007 11:20 AM:
" So how exactly would you evaluate teacher performance....test scores? That makes about as much sense as purchasing a car based on the paint job. Those of us who give 110% by providing towel fees, class trip & lunch money to these students are never discussed. Mind you, we are also the ones who coach, leave our own families 2-3 nights a week and everyother weekend for tournaments etc and yet we are not doing enough. I have a masters degree, am 38 years old and JUST paid off my school loan, plus, I spend over $600 each summer on earning credits to maintain my license. My husband completed an apprenticeship program, has no school loans and makes 50% more than me. Don't worry so much about 'teacher' salary ANY individual who works with 'people' (social workers, police officers etc) need to be paid more. "
getreal wrote on Oct 13, 2007 11:17 AM:
" Society is a scary place in today's world. Kids are growing up too fast and have NO respect for authority... So I suggest not throwing dirt at those of use who are working in the trenches unless you have been there. "
getreal wrote on Oct 13, 2007 11:16 AM:
" Obviously the author hasn't spent more than a half hour in a school building during their "business hours". I would welcome anyone into a public school, unfortunately their is a perception that the teaching profession is one of few stressors....you know after all how difficult can it be to have 20-25 children in a room. The answer would be EXTREMELY difficult with a majority of our families in our region either encompassing two working parents who have not provided much attention or support at home OR they are families who struggle DAILY to survive. Don't get me wrong, we have some wonderful families as well, but the game of LIFE is hard for a majority of us. Remember, we can not choose our students. Of course if we would we would request only the brightest and most respectful in our rooms. Obviously, that doesn't happen. "
millie wrote on Oct 12, 2007 10:41 PM:
" Also, I teach at a Q-comp school. "
millie wrote on Oct 12, 2007 10:38 PM:
" So...if I work at educating our future for 10 hours per day plus 3 hours at night after my children go to bed(13 hour days), plus at least 6 hours on the weekend. *** 71 hour weeks... I make $3500 per month...before taxes/insurance/retirement/union dues etc. So my take home is much, much less. Oh, and much to the public perception, I work throughout the summer. I may not have children in my classroom but I am preparing and updating my education. Please someone do the math, with my hours and my salary..maybe I am wrong and I am overpaid...then why am I driving old, old cars and pinching pennies? "
millie wrote on Oct 12, 2007 10:25 PM:
" I am an educator not in Winona. My salary is $42,000. I am at school teaching or in meetings(curriculum writing, leadership, technology etc) until 5:00-5:30 every day. I am at school by 7:15. After my children go to bed (8:30), I do school work until 11:00. I also go into school every weekend in addition to school/community activities. This summer I worked at school at least 4 days per week(without pay). If we make so much $ why do most of us have summer jobs? Spend a few days in an elementary classroom. Educate yourself before you supply the public with more of your OPINIONS that are only hurting the children that are our future. "
yarnivek wrote on Oct 12, 2007 3:41 PM:
" If so many teachers "don't trust" district officials, why don't they leave? I guess that's what I would do if I didn't trust my boss. The school board (and thus Durand and the rest of the administration) aren't going anywhere for at least another year. If you can't accept that, adios.
If so many teachers "don't trust" district officials, why haven't we seen mass resignations? I would think we would. One obvious answer is that the rank and file members trust the district more than union leaders would like the public to believe. "
Red Ruffensore wrote on Oct 12, 2007 1:13 PM:
" I still think all the teachers deserve a nice, fat raise. If we need to raise taxes, so be it. "
laugh wrote on Oct 12, 2007 11:21 AM:
" They get paid enough. How much more do they need! "
Former Resident of Winona wrote on Oct 12, 2007 9:28 AM:
" I know we undervalue and underpay teachers. I just don't understand why. Could it be we undervalue education? I think so. I would much rather my taxes go to improving education (including teacher salaries) than to the war effort. And as far as valuing teachers and paying them on a performance system of some sort, I would hope there would be an objective way to measure their work. "
Al Lagoon wrote on Oct 12, 2007 9:19 AM:
" You oughta change the name of your column to "Just Nonsense."
Your claim that the "rest of the world" is paid by performance is utter rubbish. Seniority and executive privilege are applied all over in both the public and private sectors. If you are concerned about your taxes, why don't you complain about our trillion dollar war instead: 2 billion every week; roughly 300 million every day! Why don't we evaluate that performance instead. "
Troller wrote on Oct 12, 2007 8:04 AM:
" The first paragraph said more than you think. If you don't support education it's almost Un-American. If you don't support the war, healthcare, tax increases, tax freezes, the pledge, marriage, immigration or you name it, IT"S Un-American. Perhaps an article defining what being an American truly is? I see a hard working individuals who are just trying to get by and make a better life for his/her familys without government interference (left or right) and the never ending attack on their paycheck. What is American then? "
Advertisement
